E466: Irith Bloom - "Dealing with Your Dog's Demand Barking"

Transcription

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I'll be talking to Irith Bloom about demand barking, what it is, why it happens, and what we can do about it. Hi Irith, welcome back to the podcast.

Irith Bloom: It is a pleasure to be here. As always.

Melissa Breau: I am super excited to chat about this, but before we dive in, do you want to just share a little bit about kind of you and your background and you know, those bits and bobs?

Irith Bloom: Yeah. So, you know, I've been working with animals, not necessarily professionally, but dealing with animals in one way or another for basically as long as I can remember.

There were always dogs in the household. I got into horses not quite as young as I wanted to. It took me a few years to convince my parents, but I, you know, got into horses. I always loved cats, went out and played with random animals in the wild, which now I'm like, some of that was probably kind of dangerous, but you know, you don't know that when you're five.

And then I got into animals professionally about it's kind of going on like 20 years ago. And I've been helping people with companion animals basically ever since then. I've worked with a variety of species and I love behavior. I'm totally a behavior geek. Some people may right now be in my Getting Geeky class, which is started on June 1, which is all about getting geeky about behavior science. So that's kind of me. I have a degree in biology. I kind of went into the animal behavior side of it and I love it.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. So as I mentioned, I want to talk about demand barking. Well, you know, that's saying, you know, you know, when you see it type of thing. You know, maybe this is one of those. But you know, how do you define demand barking?

Irith Bloom: So I've actually been thinking about this a lot because I'm preparing for this class that's coming up in the not very distant future. I've been trying to figure out how you distinguish demand barking from other kinds of barking in a way that I can explain to everyone. So what I've realized is demand barking is when you bark at another animal that could be a human or a non-human animal and you want that animal to do something for you.

Now that's something that you want them to do. That's not leave if you want them to Leave. That's distance increasing barking. It's a completely different kind of barking. You don't care how they get out of there. You don't care exactly which way they go, as long as they give you distance. Great. That's not demand barking. I'm talking about the dog who looks at you and says, you are holding the ball.

I want that ball now. Give me the ball now. Or you're being too slow making my food, which I'm sure nobody here has ever, ever encountered. Or I'm standing at the back door and there's a squirrel outside, and I really need access to the backyard so I can tell this squirrel where to get off. Will you let me out the door? So essentially what the dog is saying is, I don't have opposable thumbs.

I need help achieving this thing, and will you help me with it? Or because they sometimes also demand bark at other animals, be like, hey, come over here and play with me, or, hey, get out of that bed, because I want to lie in that bed. Those kinds of things can also fall under demand barking. So essentially it's barking where the goal is to get the sort of attention or notice of another animal.

And then that animal does something for the demanding animal. They give them something that the demanding animal wants. So how is that different than, you know, those other types of barking?

Melissa Breau: I think you mentioned, you know, distance increasing. Yes. And I know there's like alert barking. You know, what are the other types, I guess the dogs tend to engage in? And how is this different? So you can divide barking up a lot of different ways.

So I'm just going to say, like, this is how I typically divide it up. But it's not like there's a manual somewhere. Like the Diagnostic Statistical Manual of Dog Barking. That would be kind of awesome. Maybe you need to write it. We should totally write that. But the way I usually divide barking up is there's barking that's about. I want to get distance from you. Like, move away, move away, move away, go away.

So if demand barking is like, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme. Distance increasing barking is, go away. Get out of here, Shoo. Right? And then you'll get just various kinds of anxious barking. Oh, my gosh. This situation has me really nervous. And so I'm vocalizing because I'm really, really nerv. Like, hey, something's going on and I'm really tense. Hey, help, help, help, help, help. And alert barking is where I'm letting everyone else know there's a guy in the Yard.

There's this person walked into the yard. Hello, everyone. Hey, there's this guy in the yard. And alert barking is actually, in some ways the easiest one to distinguish because usually, like, something happens, something changes. Something walks into the environment, or a noise happens, and the dog's like, hey, hey, did everyone else hear that? Hey, I just want you all to know this thing is going on. So those are the main types of barking that usually annoy people.

Another place where you might see barking is in play, which is actually, I think, really kind of cute. That's just me. I love it when dogs are, like, barking at each other, like, hey, let's make this game more fun. Or some dogs just bark because they're happy. Like a kid walking down the street singing to themselves. You know, the dog's like, I'm playing with my toy and my life is awesome, and I'm barking.

So you can also have, like, joyful kinds of barking. It doesn't always have to be an unhappy, ugh, my life is so bad. Or, hey, something major is going on. It can also be, my life is awesome and I'm celebrating, and I just happen to be talking about it. So that's kind of. I think I just said five types of barking. So anxious, distance increasing, demand, alert, and then play is usually how I divide it up.

Like I said, someone else might divide it up differently, and they're not wrong. Yeah. So what causes. I mean, most of the time, we don't want demand barking. Right. So what causes some dogs to demand bark while others maybe just never try that or never do that? Some of that, I think, is kind of blind luck. First of all, some dogs are just more vocal than others. No offense to Shetland sheepdogs.

I love them. But they do tend to be talkative, and they're gonna be a lot more talkative than the average Akita. Well, Akitas are talkative in a different way, but they don't tend to be barking barky. They'll talk, but they kind of roar at you. They do that baroing thing, which is also ridiculously adorable. Just as a side note. And you can demand barou, I expect, but some dogs are just more vocal than others.

Some dogs tend to bark more than others to begin with. They're just kind of born with a tendency to bark. Sometimes that's because of a breed background. Sometimes that's just the line of dogs they come from. They're just talkers. And sometimes it relates to how they deal with stress. Like, if they tend to stress up really easily, they might be more barky. So you start with dog, who is a little bit more likely to bark.

Let's start with that. And then you have to have kind of the right scenario happen where the dog discovers, quite by accident, that barking got them what they wanted. So, you know, maybe they were watching you prepare their food, and they're stressing up because they're like, mmm, it looks really good. It smells so good. I can tell you've been cooking all day, and I cannot wait to eat this food.

And they kind of go by accident. Like, they're not even thinking about it. It just comes out. And the next thing you know, the person puts down the food bowl. And at some level in their brain, like, I don't want you all to think that our dogs are sitting there going, hmm, barking worked. Let me try that again. They're not like, you know, what's his name? On the Simpsons.

Oh, my gosh. Mr. Burns. Burns. Thank you. They're not all tenting their fingers like Mr. Burns. However, at some level, in the back of their brain, this is being logged. And I don't literally mean the back of their brain. It's actually probably more the front of their brain. But anyway, this is being logged. For future reference. I barked, and food appeared. And then if that happens again because they're a little excited, they bark again, and the food appears again.

Now they start to think, oh, wait, barking. Food comes faster. And once they've. Once the cat is out of the bag, if you will, which is such a terrible phrase. I just realized as I said that. But, you know, once that has happened, once it's like you've opened the door to this idea of, if I bark, I might get what I want. And some dogs are really good at generalizing that quickly.

Other dogs, they'll only bark for food when you're in the kitchen, and they're really, really specific. But then you get the dogs that they're like, well, barking worked in the kitchen. Let's see if it works in the bathroom. Let's see if it works by the back door. Let's see if it works when you're holding my ball. And the next thing you know, they're barking at you for everything that they want.

And as humans, we tend to be like, oh, God, make it stop. And so we give in. Which is, I mean, very understandable. We have our behavioral needs and our emotional responses. It's totally understandable. But what you wind up doing is you wind up sort of creating this little demand. Barking. Very adorable. Monster. Mm. And the next thing you know, they're barking for everything you can possibly think of.

And some things that you can't even figure out exactly what they're barking about. Yeah. Another thing about demand barking that I didn't say, by the way, is most of the time the dog will either be looking straight at you. Woof. It's you, you, you, you, or they'll be looking at the thing they want. That ball over there. Woof, woof, woof. That ball. So that's another thing that distinguishes demand barking sometimes is you can really tell what they're focused on. They're either focused on the animal who will do it for them, or they're focused on the thing they want.

Melissa Breau: That leads so well into my next question. You know, from the dog's perspective, they're communicating and they're communicating clearly. And, you know, as trainers, we're typically big fans of dogs communication and communicating with our dogs and choice, and dog is making a choice about what they want. So, you know, how do we.

How do we break some of that down and distinguish between, you know, a dog who's communicating a need, a thing that, you know, we want to pay attention to and address and do the thing, and a dog engaging in demand barking, which is probably not a behavior we want to encourage.

Right. I think you bring up a really good point because there's like the. How do I define it?

As the human. What I call demand barking might not be what, you know, the other person in the household calls demand barking. Oh, it's so cute. She. She woofs when I make her dinner. She just makes one little woof and then I give her her dinner, and it doesn't bother them at all. And I'm like, oh, this darn dog is woofing at me. And the woofs are making me crazy.

So some of it is perspective. Right. It's definitely communication. You've definitely hit something really important here because they're like, well, I found a way to let you know this is what I want. And we humans, we are normally so bad at listening to dogs. We're really bad at it. They're actually very good at figuring out what we want and what we're doing and what mood we're in. And we tend to be terrible at figuring out what they want and what their thinking.

Thinking and what mood they're in. We're just bad at those things. So they finally have. They're like, look, I'm speaking in a language that my kind of dumb human can at least understand. And so no wonder they get really attached to it because it is communication. So as a. I always say I'm a choice rich trainer. I'm like an agency supporting choice rich. Whatever those kinds of adjectives you want to tar me with, please go ahead.

I'm a cookie pusher, all of those things. So for me, I start to say, well, wait a minute, they're letting me know that they want something. This is communication. I do want to encourage communication. The problem is it's not a form of communication that I love. So this is very much like dealing with other human beings. Right. Sometimes someone has something important to say and the message is really important, but the way they're delivering the message is just awful.

And so either it really irritates you or their point doesn't come across very well. And in the end, instead of taking that message and doing whatever that person needs, you wind up ignoring them because they're annoying. And I think the same thing can happen with our dogs. The message may be totally legit, but the way they're delivering it can be really annoying. So that's one category. Like, sometimes they're telling us, hey, I really need to go out and go potty right now.

And I'm barking at the back door because that's where the bathroom is, is out there. And could you just let me out to go to the bathroom because I really need to potty. I think all of us would be like, well, I'd much rather have the dog let me know they have to potty than have a potty accident in the house. Right? So that's communication we want to hear.

That's communication that we appreciate. But maybe we don't like the way they're telling us now. I think sometimes the dog has tried really hard to tell us more quietly first and we've missed it because we go back to the humans are not that good at reading dogs in most cases. So we. We didn't see the 15 things they did before they started barking. We're like, the darn dog always barks to be let out.

But we didn't see that they came and looked at us and then looked at the door and looked at us and then looked at the door. My dog used to do this with his water bowl. He'd come over to find me and he'd be like, hi. Like, hi, how are you? I'm good. And then he'd go to the kitchen. I'd be like, I'm not feeding you right now.

And then you come and find me again. Be like, hi, what the heck is up? And I finally, I'd follow him to the kitchen. It would turn out his water bowl was empty. That would be a perfectly good thing for him to bark at me about. Right. Like, water is important. I get it. And he just wasn't a barky dog, this particular dog. So he did not resort to barking.

That wasn't his tool. He believed that he could hypnotize me if he stared at me enough, which was kind of true. But that's a side note. Keep your works. Yeah. So, you know, but I think that a lot of times dogs do come up with a nicer way to say, can you help me out? I need something from you. And we just don't notice it. And so then they start barking.

And those things like, my water bowl is empty, are legitimate, important needs that we should be paying attention to. That I am glad that the dog communicated to me about. Then there's the you're in the middle of a zoom meeting, and I really want to play ball right now. Demand barking. And I think that this is where, as choice rich agency supporting trainers, one of the things we struggle with is, you know, I want to be able to say yes to my dog, but sometimes I can't.

And what do I do when I have to say no? And demand barking often comes up in those scenarios where you're like, I can't do this right now, and so I'm just gonna bark at you until you give in and throw the ball for me. I'm just gonna keep barking because what I've learned is if I bark for long enough, you will be like, oh, whatever, throw the ball.

So those scenarios are the ones where the demand barking is really like, spoiled child kind of barking. You know, I want it and I want it now, and I cannot tolerate not having it, but I don't actually need it. Water. I need you to throw the ball in the middle of your zoom meeting. That's not actually a need, especially if I played with you 45 minutes ago. You know, I mean, unless they're a young puppy of certain breeds, in which case 45 minutes is way too long.

But for most adult dogs, if I played with them within the last hour, they can probably survive on their own for a little bit, and they're just being a little bit demanding in a way that I don't necessarily want to play into. So one thing I will say is, it's a really good idea to teach your dog a not now signal. And what I mean by not now is it's not a, you'll never get this.

It's not, I'll never throw the ball for you again. I'll never put your food bowl down or whatever it is. It's, hang tight, I can't do it now. I'll get back to you later on. And later on could be 10 minutes from now or two hours from now, eventually I will meet your need for play. I'm just not going to meet your need for play in this exact moment.

So I think that that's where we have to start thinking about. Is the demand barking for something that we really feel is a legitimate and urgent need, or is it something that's a want right now? Even if fundamentally, like food is a need, play is a need. Social interaction for social animals like dogs is a need, but it doesn't have to be an urgent need right this second.

They should be able to go a little time between when they get these things that they want. So it's not that I'm never going to play with them, it's that I'm going to say, I'll play with you in this time period or that situation, not right when you're demand barking. So it's really important for us to loop back to where I was going. It's really important for us to start thinking about those scenarios and figure out which times is the demand barking giving me a message that I really need to pay attention to.

And which times is the demand barking a not now situation where I can say to the animal, you know, I get it, I get that you want it, I would want it too, but you can't have it right now. Yeah. So you mentioned a couple of common scenarios there where it tends to show up. But just kind of recap when we're most likely to see demand barking. And then obviously, if there are any that you haven't mentioned yet, I know you mentioned like needing to go out food, water, wanting to play.

Are there other kind of common times that it pops up where we're likely to see it? Sometimes I will see demand barking when there's another animal involved. Like I go to pet the cat and suddenly the dog is demand barking. And for that matter, I just want you to know that everything I say about demand barking applies to demand behavior in general. Like there is actually demand behavior in any species, including humans.

You will see it in horses, you'll see it in cats, you'll see it in parrots. In parrots, it's very noticeable because they're very loud. But like cats will meow to be let out or let in. That's depending on how often they're doing it. If anyone here has cats, you know that sometimes they'll do it a lot, like, let me out. No. Let me in. No. Let me out.

No. Let me in. You know, that can get pretty demanding. So all of these behaviors can be for basically anything that they want. And one of the things that I see is, how dare you pet the housemate cat or the housemate dog? And as soon as you start petting them, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. The attention is for me. I'm the diva of the household, and I need all the attention.

And how dare you be giving attention to another animal? And that can be a cat, a dog, a rat, a ferret. I mean, like, whatever you might have in your household. Or a human. Because I know dogs who start barking as soon as the humans hug or start speaking to each other or touch or, for that matter, get on the phone. So it's all about keeping that animal's focus on them.

And in that case, it's a little bit more about attention than a specific physical thing like food or the toy. But that's another scenario where I'll see it, where, hey, how dare you not pay attention to me? I'm gonna demand bark about this. I don't get demand barking. But one of the most interesting cases of that in my household is if, you know, dog A has something that's really good, and dog B has already finished their something really good and would like the thing that dog A now has. They will come over and bug me for it, make him give up his resource so that I can have it now.

Melissa Breau: That's awesome. That's really funny. I thought you were going to tell me that they go and they bark at the front door, because that's another thing that I see. This is a common one. Yeah. Is it? The one dog goes and barks at the front door, and the other dog's like, oh, there's something going on.

They leave the resource. It's like, now it's mine. Yeah, yeah, that would be preferable, because then I wouldn't have to get involved. But no, no, the problem is, mom, mom, come. Come give me the thing that he has. It's like, no, that's his thing. Yeah. And the way you're not gonna give you the thing. The way you just phrased it, by the way, is like the perfect phrasing.

If anyone's ever seen that segment of Family Guy where Stewie is bugging his mother, whose name I think is Joan. In the show, he's like, mom, mom, mom, mom, mom. That's demand behavior. Yeah, yeah. All right. So anybody who has a dog who's dealt with demand barking almost certainly has heard the advice to just wait it out. Like, that is the most common advice out there for demand barking.

So, you know, is it really that simple? What is it about demand barking that can make it so hard to change it? Well, let me start by telling you the one scenario where waiting it out actually does tend to work. And that is if it's the first time the dog has ever demand barked. Now, that doesn't necessarily have to mean it could be the first time they've ever demand barked at you, but it's even better if it's the first time they've ever demand barked, period.

Because at that point the behavior is very flexible. They're just trying it out. You know, they're like, if I bark at you, will I get my food faster? And if you just don't change anything about your behaviour and it's the very first time they've barked at you for their food, there is a decent chance that they'll realize that that tactic is not working and they won't try it again.

This is less likely if they've already successfully barked for food at 10 other people in the past. So even if they haven't done it with you before, if you're like number 11 and there's this long line of people behind you who have all given into the demand barking, the odds are very low that it's going to work. And if you've given into the demand barking in the past, even once, the odds are much, much, much lower that waiting it out is going to work to the point where by the time, like for me dealing with students or clients, by the time someone comes to me with a demand barking issue, that is never my advice because we're like so far beyond that point.

What the animal has learned is that as long as they bark long enough, eventually they'll get the thing they wanted. So it's no longer a like one bark. It's like 27 barks. Oh, 27 didn't work. Let me try 35. Oh, that didn't work. Let me try 47. And you know, the next thing you know, they're barking for five minutes straight and you get to the point where you just, you know, you can't stand it anymore.

And then you wind up giving them whatever it is, giving in to the demand. So it's not realistic to ask people to ignore it because it's just most of the time, it's just not going to stop. And it's really maddening. And it's also very hard for us not to respond at all. Because the ideal if we really want to ignore. I'm making quote marks. I think everyone can see me.

But in case you're just listening to this, if you really want to ignore a behavior, what you should do is not change your behavior. That doesn't mean you stand still necessarily. If you were walking, you keep walking. If you were looking to the right, you keep looking to the right. You pretend that nothing even happened and basically keep going with your day. That's what ignoring should look like.

It's actually really hard to do. So most of the time when the dog barks, you're going to jump or look down at them. And even if you look and you're like, no, no, I'm not supposed to look at them. I'm supposed to look somewhere else. I'll look over here, I'll do this other thing. You already gave them that millisecond of attention and they're like, I got you, I got you.

You're pretending to ignore me, but I got you. So the ignoring thing, just throw it out. Unless it's literally brand new puppy, this is the very first time they've ever done it, and you think you can sort of nip it in the bud, as they say, that is the only way it's going to work. So definitely ignoring. Not very realistic. I will say sometimes just walking away from the dog and putting a barrier between you and the dog, which could mean, just for the record, people who know me well know that I'm always saying these kinds of things, like step into an ex pen, step out of an ex pen, you know, step through a door, put yourself out of the dog's sort of immediate reach.

And sometimes that will at least give you a moment to collect yourself. They'll quiet down and you can start thinking strategically before you go back in the situation. But the problem with the leave the scenario thing is that it tends to increase frustration. So even though theoretically, from an operant conditioning standpoint, I'm not reinforcing, I'm walking away, which should be punishing. There's also this whole emotional classical conditioning component that comes along with everything we do.

If the dog's getting frustrated, they're not thinking as clearly. They're going to keep barking. So the barking might not even stop when you walk away. But I will say in the moment, if you're just like, I can't. I don't know what to do. I have no idea. Walking away is one possible temporary solution while you come up with a better plan. I'll tell you what I actually do advise people who have a sustained demand barking problem where it happens a lot and it's happening for long durations.

Just given on the first bark, just cut your losses. You want the ball? I'll throw the ball. You want the food? I'll give you the food. What I don't want to do is train more duration. I don't want to train longer bouts of barking. So walk away or given on the first bark. Don't even bother trying to ignore either of those solutions. Is your temporary band aid while you figure out what you're actually going to do to deal with the issue.

Melissa Breau: What is it about demand barking that can make it so hard to change? Like, so we get so stuck. We get so stuck because the dogs have learned that eventually they will get paid. And this is like gambling. If you ever watch people at a casino, I don't live that far from Las Vegas, and I used to go to a conference every year in Las Vegas. They've now moved it to Chicago, which in many ways is much, much better.

But the conference wasn't on the Strip. It was at this, like, dedicated veterinary center in Las Vegas, near the airport, actually. But you always wind up in a casino at some point when you're in Las Vegas because you want to go to a restaurant or something, and they're all in casinos. So you watch the people in casinos, and they will sit there for hours on the off chance that they're gonna hit that literal jackpot.

Our dogs are the same way. They're like, you know, it worked on December 5, 2023, and it might still work today. I'm gonna keep trying until it works again. Usually they've gotten a little more reinforcement than that. And I will say, by the way, for anyone who's considering gambling, don't. Because that's not how casinos get built on people winning money. It's weak because you lose money. That's how the casinos get built.

But putting that aside, they actually have, like, really good behavior scientists working in Las Vegas. And they do things to ensure that a new gambler wins a little more frequently so that they hook you. And usually what's happened with demand barking is in the beginning, we don't realize what we're doing. And so we've reinforced it a fair amount, and now there's this nice chunk of reinforcement history sitting on the demand behavior.

And then when we're like, oh, now I'll start ignoring the dog's like, oh, well, I guess the slot machine's just not paying as well this week. But I'll keep trying. I'm sure by next week it'll be working again. Yeah. So all of that kind of, you know, aside, is there anything that useful that, you know, we can tell from demand barking or tell, you know, if nothing else about, you know, what a dog has learned to expect from this environment with demand barking, Is there any use to this for us?

So there is. So one thing is, you know, we know who the people who pay well for this kind of behavior are. So sometimes if you. Now, I will say I actually happen to have a wonderful husband who's very thoughtful about the way he behaves around animals in our household. But, like, I have this friend who. I had a dog who, when I got him, was. He was a rescue dog.

And he came with some known problems, I'll just put it that way. And one of the known problems was that he jumped on people when they walked in the door. And he was kind of tall. So it was a little disconcerting for the people. I was able to train him out of jumping on everybody except for the one person who I could not train out of pushing him down when he jumped up on her.

And for him, he was like, yay, I get reinforced by her. And so he kept working the same routine with her, and I could never make that change, basically because I needed her to help. So sometimes it's just good to be like, you know what this person, it's a lost cause. We're never going to fix the demand barking with this person because they are not going to be able to change their behavior in a way that is helpful.

So that's one thing. The other thing is you learn a lot about what the dog finds really reinforcing, like, what motivates them in enough to do the demand barking. So, you know how we always talk about. Well, I shouldn't say we always. You will often hear trainers say whatever is a distraction to your dog is a potential reinforcer. Right. We have a. I think we either just wrapped up or have a class going right now on the Premack principle.

I think it's actually going right now. And that's basically the concept. Like, whatever is motivating is distracting. Right. So if they're willing to demand bark about it, they feel highly motivated to get this thing in most cases, so how can I use that to my advantage? How can I make that encourage behavior that I do like? So I know that they really want the food bowl because they bark about the food bowl.

How can I train a different behavior that I then reinforce with the food bowl, which I know is this massive, important reinforcer, or they wouldn't be getting so excited and barking at me while I'm prepping dinner. So, I mean, and I'm. I'm really. I'm. I'm a lazy trainer and I'm a greedy trainer, which is a terrible combination in some ways. What I mean by lazy is the less I have to micromanage the animals I'm around, the better.

Like, I want them to know what to do without being told. Because I'm lazy, I don't want to be bothered constantly going, oh, no, over here, over there. Do this, do that. That's one piece. The greedy is. Once I figured out what's really reinforcing, then I'm like, what 25 behaviors can I get you to do before I give you this thing you really want? And I don't literally mean 25, but if anyone's heard me talk about the Premack principle, it starts with, can you give me eye contact before I give you what you want?

And then it's like, can you target my hand and give me eye contact? And then it's like, oh, can you spin and then target my hand and give me eye contact? And then I give you. And I just start building these longer and longer sequences of. I'm going to give you this cue, and I'm going to give you this Q. And I'm going to give you this. This cue, and I'm going to give you that cue.

And so I know I have something that's highly motivating. How can I use it to strengthen behaviors that I want to strengthen anyway? Because I'm going to use them in rally or agility or, you know, nose work or whatever it might be.

Melissa Breau: Okay, so we've talked about the fact that the answer is not, probably not. Just ignore the thing. And we talked about some, like, temporary things you can do while you figure out the plan. So how do we actually approach reducing this obnoxious behavior that our dogs have figured out pays so well?

Irith Bloom: So this is where we go back to the way back in the mists of time when the demand barking behavior started. The dog probably did several things before they started barking. And what I want to do is I want to rebuild one of those things. And maybe I don't maybe I don't rebuild one of those things.

Maybe I come up with something because I don't know what those things were, but I want to build some other, less obnoxious way for the dog to let me know what they want. So usually before a dog demand barks, they walk up to you, usually. So maybe what I do is I reward whatever it was that they wanted, whatever the demand barking gets them. I'm just going to keep going with the food bowl because it's such a common example.

Yeah, you want your food bowl. You just walked up to me, and your mouth is shut, or at least it doesn't have to be literally closed, because our dogs often are panting. But you're. You're not vocalizing. You've walked up to me. Here's your food bowl. And from that I start with, okay, so walking up to me quietly is the behavior that I'm going to reinforce. Let's get that a little bit established.

Let's do that a few times so that maybe now the dog walks up and if I wait a half second, they just pause, standing still without barking, and then they get their food bowl, and I can shape in tiny increments from there to whatever it is that I actually want to see. Do I want you to lie on your bed before I give your food bowl? Let me shape you in that direction.

Do I want you to stand quietly while I feed your brother? I can shape towards that. Assuming your brother doesn't also demand bark. Try to work with one dog at a time if you can. It's much simpler. So that would be one thing we can do, is just pick a behavior that we like. And sometimes we'll find that the dog has already picked a behavior and that they keep doing it first, and then they bark.

And if we just grab hold of that, that can be really, really helpful. So it's all about analyzing. I call them precursor behaviors. That's the term that's gotten stuck in my brain. So find that precursor behavior that isn't obnoxious that you as a human can live with. And teach the dog that the precursor behavior gets paid. And then maybe go to one precursor before that. You know, maybe they were lying on their bed and then they saw you prep their food and they got up from their bed and walked over to you.

And what you really want is for them to just stay on their bed. So you would just kind of shape your way backwards in that sequence. Oh, you walked over quietly. Here's your bowl. Now that I know you'll walk over quietly. Maybe I'll give it to you a little earlier. A little, little earlier. A little earlier. You're lying on your bed. I'm going to prep your bowl and stick it in the refrigerator.

If that doesn't make it really gross and pull it out while you're on your bed and rush over to you and feed it to you. So that now we're starting to reinforce. Be on your bed. And then I start putting in the food prep. Like, can I put it in the refrigerator and pull it out and then walk it over to you? Can I put it on the counter, put it in the refrigerator, pull it out, walk it over to you and eventually work all the way back to.

I'm actually prepping your food and you are staying quietly on your bed. So I just look for where can I short circuit that sequence that turns into the demand barking and that can really help. And then the other thing is, like I said, it can help to teach a not now signal. Like, I'm really sorry, but when I give you this signal or this signal, I don't really care what it is.

Like you can pretend you're directing an airplane. Whatever the signal is, that means nothing doing. After I've done this thing, I will actually absolutely ignore you. And then they start to learn. When I see this signal, it's nothing doing, so I might as well give up. So that's sort of training a brand new behavior of when I say not now, then you go and entertain yourself. Hopefully not by doing something really awful that would get my attention again.

This is where we manage the environment. So those are sort of the troops. Yeah. Yes. So those are sort of the two pieces. Yeah. You know, the first piece is what do I want to reinforce with that behavior? Let's look at the precursors and work my way back to something I'm happy with. Or insert something new that I'm happy with. Like, you know, do the hokey pokey, turn yourself around, and then I will give you your food bowl.

And for the times when you want that ball and I cannot play with you with the ball, I need you to learn my not now Whatever it might, I'm totally going to start using this as a not now signal.

Melissa Breau: So funny. So you mentioned kind of at the beginning here, but we're talking about this partially because you're offering a three week class on demand barking in the July session.

I had to think about what month we're in. You're not the boss of me decoding demand barking. So do you want to talk A little more about kind of what the class will cover, maybe who might want to sign up, any other details folks might need.

Irith Bloom: So, yeah, I'm excited about this class. It's a first time class, which means there's always going to be that little bit of like, we're all surfing together on a wave that I'm not quite sure what the wave will do.

My plan is to talk about some of the very things we've been talking about here and help to sort of, I'm going to use a fancy term here, operationalize that for the students. Like, what does that actually look like in your household? Let's figure it out together and find a good path for you and the dogs you live with. And if you happen to have a cat who meows to be let out, we can work with your cat too, just for the record.

And then the goal is going to be for each team to find the right solution for them, basically, which is sort of always my. It's always my goal with my gold teams is let's solve whatever you came in here for. And the Silvers who get to do a lot of video these days, we're going to work on the same kinds of things. And the people who might want to sign up are the people who do have those vocal dogs.

I think I'm probably going to be seeing some of my alert barking class students in this class because they actually suggested the class that was it kept coming up. They were like, so can we talk about demand barking? Like, no, I have three weeks. I just don't have space. But this three weeks, for those of you who are in the alert barking class and were like, hey, how about demand barking?

This is the three weeks where we're going to really focus in on this. So if you have a talkie dog who tends to be pushy or any other kind of animal that tends to be pushy could be literally physically pushy, like, poke, poke, poke. I know some dogs who will just keep tapping you until you give them something. I know cats who will claw you if they want something from you. All of those things. The concept is similar and you are very welcome in the class.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. So it doesn't have to necessarily be barking, even though that's kind of in the name. Yes, exactly. That is good to know. Awesome. All right, well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast to talk about all this, Irith.

Irith Bloom: Thank you. It is always a pleasure. Thank you so much. And I love the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy audience. Thank you for being so awesome.

Melissa Breau: Aw. Well, thank you again and thanks to our listeners for tuning in and our viewers for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with presenters from the upcoming One Day Conference on Arousal to talk about what they're presenting at the conference. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast either on iTunes, the podcast app of your choice, or over on YouTube to make sure you never miss another episode.

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for sending supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by Benson.com the track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Audio and video editing I should say provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

Credits

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!